DMOZ Ignores Submissions
Recently, it’s been alleged that a DMOZ editor was soliciting cash payments as a means for site owners and webmasters to get their sites reviewed and listed in the DMOZ Directory.
I personally believe that this is the exception and not the norm, but I find it most troubling that what I believe to be a DMOZ editor had this to say in a WPW thread…
The fact still remains that editors do not, if they don’t want to, have to look at suggested sites. I’m one of those that choose not to, so the “backlog” is of no concern to me.
This is not only most troubling, but a major source of the “ill will” directed at the DMOZ in my opinion. If the DMOZ policy is to not require editors to even bother to take a moment to glance at submissions, then don’t accept submissions.
Let me repeat this because I feel it’s important…
If the DMOZ guidelines do not require editors to take the time to even glance at the sites submitted to their category, stop taking submissions. In fact the DMOZ directions on how to submit a site clearly state…
An ODP editor will review your submission to determine whether to include it in the directory. Depending on factors such as the volume of submissions to the particular category, it may take several weeks or more before your submission is reviewed.
The DMOZ published guidelines don’t say may. They don’t say might review your submission. They clearly say they will review it.
I am a proponent of the DMOZ but when editors state that what they do in actuality is totally opposite of their publically stated policy, it’s no small wonder there’s so much negativity aimed at them.
Dave
August 26th, 2006 at 1:18 pm
Great post Dave!
I saw a few weeks ago they checked my submitted site(logs).
They just rejected it i think, not because the site doesn’t belong there(there were sites just like mine in that directory) but because it’s a club of editors who have their own sites and don’t like competition.
A shame that it is that way. They don’t even like other editors if their not part off the club, so you get rejected when applying for editor.
August 27th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
Again i applied for editor today because if they don’t have enough people to edit i wanne help.
I can do this very objective. And i will also.
Gues what …
Not 3 h later i was rejected …
So they can be quick …
It’s not normal that Google gives a corrupt directory so much power.
I think this is a big issue and i thank Dave that he gives this the attention that it deserves.
August 30th, 2006 at 10:20 am
From my personal experience, this is not new.
As to what the “norm” is at DMOZ, well, that’s anybody’s guess.
I’ve given my own rants about DMOZ, which I think stands for Don’t Mention Other Zites (or something like that) and in all honesty, never really needed them.
However, it would be nice to get a site listed in a high PR directory. There are some benefits to that.
That’s why I like HEDir. http://www.hedir.com You might not get in, but you know exactly why you didn’t get in.
August 30th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
Here’s follow up reply on WPW by the editor who I quoted…
My issue remains. If the DMOZ is going to accept submissions, ALL EDITORS should be REQUIRED to review ALL submitted sites on a timely basis. If there’s not a sufficient amount of editors to accomplish this task either get some more editors or turn off submissions. It’s fine and dandy to encourage editors to find quality sites on their own, but NOT at the expense of letting submitted sites rot as long as they continue to accept submissions.
Dave
August 30th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
“get some more editors or turn off submissions.”
Well, I’ve applied about 3 times. I tell you what, they really reject editor submissions quickly over there. I know that they have down to a nice and timely response. Each one of my applications got rejected within 2 hours.
So I completely agree with you. In fact, I’ll go one step better. Call their bluff, and take away this so called POWER they have over us. Maybe there should be a united front to DMOZ to TURN OFF SUBMISSIONS.
I mean, that way, no one gets frustrated, and the editors can go on their own little corrupt, self serving lives.
Or, if that seems a little boneheaded, then a united front to ask them to accept more editors, or accept more trusted editors.
I don’t know. Right now, I’m all grass-rootsy.
August 31st, 2006 at 4:46 pm
Crankydave, you’re still whining over this issue? It doesn’t matter whether you have an issue with it or not. I’ll be very blunt, all the whining in the world from you isn’t going to change things. My *job as an editor isn’t to process submissions. Should I repeat that again? Should I repeat that a million times over? You might not like it, you might not agree with it, and you can whine about it all you want, but it really doesn’t matter. AGAIN, editors don’t edit just to process submissions. You should know this already, unless you don’t get out on many SEO forums where editors have to repeat that fact until they’re blue in the face. Editors can find sites any way they want, whether it’s through suggestions, a newspaper or television ad, or just searching using a search engine, and even from sites that are already listed; a lot of sites link to other sites on the same topic. I enjoy reading from somone who mentions that their site is listed in Dmoz and they didn’t even suggest it. It’s even better coming from someone who doesn’t know Dmoz exists until someone tells them about it, then they go to see if their site is listed and it is. That tells me that they are more concerned about creating good content for their site, than having a Dmoz listing and using SEO to manipulate SE results.
I was shopping at a local crafts store one time and saw the web address printed on the store reciept. I checked out the website later that night and decided to add it to the proper regional category. That’s only ONE way editors find sites. Suggestions will not get priority over the other means used to find sites. As an editor, I’m not here to cater to your webmaster needs by reviewing your site. What about all the other webmasters who haven’t suggested their sites? Their site is just as worthy of an ODP review and listing as much as yours. Just because you have suggested your site does not mean it has a priority over sites that haven’t been suggested. You may not like what I have to say, but it doesn’t matter. Do you want me to lie to you about these things or sugarcoat them for you? I know it’s not what you want to hear, but at somone point we’re all going to have to accept information we don’t want to hear.
Dmoz cannot make me review a site if I don’t want to review it. That’s something editors are told from day one. If they feel uncomfortable reviewing a site, then they don’t have to review it. Every site I add to the directory is helping the directory with one of it’s goals - to help grow the directory. Your site will be reviewed, just not by me, and not within a specified time-frame. At some point in time, every site suggested to the directory will be reviewed.
And, you know what, I did look at 6 suggested sites that weekend. I stopped at 6 because I became frustrated with what I knew the types of sites to be had. After waisting another 40-50 minutes on those sites, only one was listable, but belonged in a different category, the rest I deleted. I, then spent 30 mintues and easily added 3 sites to the directory that were never submitted. That’s what I do when I review sites. That’s why I have more site additions than site deletions. That’s one of the reasons why the directory grows in the number of sites listed every month - because sites are being added, and it doesn’t matter whether those sites are ever suggested to the directory or not. You may think suggested sites should have a priority over non-suggested ones, but there are a lot of editors who think differently.
You’ve proven to me that webmasters are only self-interested. The ODP’s goals and your goals as a webmaster are very different, and I’m only interested in the ODP’s goals. You don’t care about whether webmaster John, who has a lot of unique information on his site, gets his site listed or not. In fact, you’d cry foul if John’s site was listed and he never suggested it. See, that’s the difference between you as a webmaster and me as an editor. I’m more concerned about listing sites that the directory user will find useful, be they suggested or not, it doesn’t matter. You, on the other hand, only care that YOUR site is reviewed and YOU should get a priority site review over John’s site because you think being listed might be important, while, John, on the other hand, only wants to create good content for his site’s visitors. I’m not interested in YOUR priorities Crankydave, I’m only interested in the ODP’s priorities.
You never know, your site might be found by an editor like me who is searching the Internet for sites to add to the directory. But, according to your line of thinking, if I, or another editor, come upon your site, we shouldn’t list it since we didn’t come upon it in the suggestion pool. How is not listing listable sites we find through searches going to help the directory user? It’s not. I’m more concerned about them finding sites they’ll find helpful, while you’re more concerned about having YOUR site reviewed, and screw everyone else’s sites. Our priorities are not the same Crankydave.
And, now you want all site suggesstions turned off? Why, because someone’s site might be added to the directory even though they never submitted it, while another sit that was suggested will get reviewed and added, while yours is still waiting? Is it a case of if you can’t have it then no one can? Suggestions aren’t going to be turned off anytime soon. Suggestions are still ONE way for editors to find listable sites, but it’s not, and shouldn’t, be the only way. And, nowhere in Dmoz guidelines does it say suggestions take a priority over other ways to find listable sites. You may want it that way, but your wants and what Dmoz listing and editor guidelines actually state are two different things. Link me to the page on Dmoz’s website where it says submissions should take a priority over anything else and I’ll make my next 100 site reviews all from the Dmoz suggestion pool.
I’d love to keep responding to your whining, but I think I’ll spend that time watching a movie with the kids, or spend some time looking for sites to add to the Dmoz directory.
(excuse all the spelling and grammar mistakes)
September 1st, 2006 at 8:32 am
dogluvver, I have known crankydave both as a forum expert on SEO and as a friend for many years and if you know my username you will know that I am a moderator at http://www.webproworld.com as well as a pretty well known advocate of people submitting to DMOZ. Firstly CD does not ‘whine’ he makes logical common sense replies to hundreds of posters in both WPW and at my place http://www.davidcastle.org/BB/ and his comments and knowledge are frankly second to not many other posters.
At WPW for many years our DMOZ expert was CPB who has since moved on.Craig would I am certain have agreed with CD. Sure you will get hundreds if not thousands of sites to review, and frankly I would find it a soul destroying job of wading through all of those sites -but - you have ‘volunteered’ and therefor must learn to take such criticism under advisement. I applaud you for finding a decent site and listing it off your own back, good call. But also learn that being a DMOZ editor has it’s downsides as well as it’s upsides. If CD makes a point, it is a valid one and made only with good intententions. David
September 1st, 2006 at 8:48 am
I personally would like to thank you for showing yet again why so many people have so many issues with DMOZ.. The elitist, screw you, attitude that runs rampant over there.. Dave made a simple suggestion to help DMOZ cut down on a TON of the complaints.. simply remove the submit your site option.. Since so few of you actually use the submitted sites anayway (at least that’s what nearly every DMOZ defender says every time it’s brought up) you won’t miss it, and webmasters won’t have a reason to complain..
You see, you have to realize, while DMOZ may not view the “submission process” as important, 99% of the rest of the world actually looks at things that are submitted to them.. Hence the problem.. You can kill an awful lot of problems by simply removing it..
Also, you have to know that a great number of people that are criticizing DMOZ already have their sites listed and are not whining about not being listed, but are trying to point out ways that you could improve everyone’s situation.. But the arrogance in the DMOZ editorial crew gets all in a tither about someone not agreeing with them and drinking the kool-aide that they simply can’t see that..
September 1st, 2006 at 10:06 am
dogluver… Thank you for commenting on my constructive criticism.
My suggestion to you would be to either ignore constructive criticism or to pass it on to someone else within the DMOZ who can see it for what it is instead of labeling the person delivering it a “whiner”.
It’s pretty straightforward. If the DMOZ does not have the resources or desire to properly administer their own published submission/suggestion process… turn it off.
I too applaud you for adding more quality sites to the DMOZ directory. But please, do not justify your refusal to even review submitted sites by pointing to the ones that you find on your own.
Let me take my constructive criticism a step further by proffering a suggestion as well. Again, if you feel the need to label me a “whiner” again, please pass my suggestion on to someone in the DMOZ who can see it for what it is.
1. Stop accepting submissions and work on reviewing ALL submitted sites until the backlog is gone.
2. If the DMOZ wishes to continue to accept submissions, do not do so until they have sufficient resources to administer the process and review ALL submissions on a regular basis.
3. Revise the submission process to be URL only submissions/suggestions to the proper category. Titles and descriptions are provided by the editor if the site is deemed worthy for inclusion.
4. Publish a “no follow” “no index” list of the submitted URL’s and update it every 30-60 days. Sort it alphabetically. Interested parties will now have a means to check as to whether or not their site has been reviewed and/or received by simply checking the list, since reviewed sites will be removed, necessitating some sort of response from the DMOZ.
As long as the DMOZ continues to do nothing in regards to this process, the “stone throwing” will continue. One way or the other, the primary goal of the DMOZ and its’ directory does not change and just perhaps you and others will have more time to include even more sites than you already do instead of calling DMOZ proponents “whiners”.
Dave
September 1st, 2006 at 11:38 am
I’d treat dogluver’s post for it is, Dave, and ignore it. It was aggressive without any cause, insulting, and included a boatload of stuff that weren’t anything to do with your suggestion. In fact, I think he just unloaded on you for the sake of it.
It’s my genuine opinion that the editors (metas included) who ‘play’ in forums and blogs, only play so that they can be seen as having a bit of power, and they love it. The sad thing is that they do have a bit of power, but only over people who believe that a listing in DMOZ matters, and there are far too many website owners who actually believe that. The reality is that DMOZ editors have ne *real* power at all. It’s true that they have the power to grant or deny a listing in DMOZ, but the listing really isn’t worth anything much, and it’s not especially desirable.
What benefit is there is a listing there? Well, a site gets 2 decent IBLs (one from DMOZ and one from Google - eventually), plus a some very tiny links from site that use the DMOZ data *BUT* none of them have decent link text - and that’s the crunch. On the other hand, a sitr can get plenty of IBLs from directories *with targeted link text*, and they can be acquired in a very short space of time. If the drudgery of submitting to them isn’t your cup of tea, there are plenty of perfectly good, very cheap, submission serves around these days.
Given a choice of listings in the other directories, and a listing in DMOZ, I’d pick the others every time - there’s no comparison.
Now to the topic of this thread:-
I agree with dogluver. The Submission system isn’t going to be removed - they need it. We only see the editors who like to flash some pseudo power in threads, but most editors don’t do that, and many if not most of them need submissions, or no sites would be added to their categories. So I think the submissions system is there to stay.
DMOZ itself isn’t like those ‘flashy’ editors and metas - at least not unless it’s changed since was an editor. If it hasn’t changed, then they have a Greenbuster editor level. “Greens” are unreviewed sites, and Greenbusters are able to review sites in a wider area than they are able to add sites. They review them, and cat editors add them quickly. DMOZ also has another system where voluteers are requested to help in categories that have large backlogs of unreviewed sites. Both of those systems are aimed at reducing the huge backlog of submitted, unreviewed sites. If those systems are still operating, and I’m sure they are, then people like dogluver are actually working *against* the aims of DMOZ. It’s true that they don’t *have* to review submitted sites, but DMOZ as an organisation wants them to be reviewed.
But the most important thing that everyone should understand is that a listing in DMOZ is alright, but that’s all it is. And it’s easier, quicker, and MUCH MUCH better to get listings in other directories. Leave the people in DMOZ to go about their business, and get on with yours. In the time it’s taken me to write this post, I could have submitted a site to a dozen directories or more, and gained much more for the site than a listing in DMOZ will ever produce.
September 5th, 2006 at 10:06 am
Wow, he could have reviewed your site and about 20 others in the time it took him to write that very lengthy response.
That says it all about his priorites and personality. It also backs up a lot of what I am reading about DMOZ editors.
September 5th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
@Boogaloodude
Check the dmoz editors forum.
They are more in that forum then reviewing sites.
They just love the power and off course the money (or other things they get for listing a site quick)
Take the power out off dmoz immediately, they don’t need it.
November 8th, 2006 at 7:36 am
I also STRON BELIVE that SOME prob with DMOZ… I submitted a lot of my clients Siet ,,, I track the Visit of DMOZ Editor through my Log File,, but They never List any of my client site,, I submitted about 10 different theme based Siet, And all they have Good positon for SERP on MSN and GOOGLE.
December 21st, 2006 at 8:26 pm
http://netters.nl/machtsmisbruik-door-dmoz-editors#comment-114
Sorry, the article is in Dutch.
Ulco is an editor at dmoz and tells what is happening.
There are 2 main editors for dutch language.(the chiefs)
The one has a SEO company and is webmaster off voorbeginners.info. This site is 40 times in dmoz. And he has also other sites which show up a lot in the directory.
The second is webmaster off katinkahesselink.net and shows up 61 times in dmoz …
In the reply thread i offered that there are a lot sites which don’t have their place in the directory.
Ulco answers : “When we remove them a higher editor comes in and brings the site back in. We get a warning then.”
I didn’t have a clue that it is that worse …
December 22nd, 2006 at 10:19 am
wow…
Thanx for pointing this out Pascal.
I think it’s worth pointing out the they are no longer accepting submissions at this time. I hope it’s the beginning of a “reorganization” and not the beginning of the end.
Dave
December 24th, 2006 at 2:28 pm
Seems like they can login and edit again at this time.
Only the submissions are still closed but they expect that it won’t take long before it opens again.
I see a link ‘report spam’ now, was that before?
December 26th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
Not that I remember.
Dave
January 22nd, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Seems that the submissions are back available.